Broken Shivers

Thursday, October 13, 2005

And God said 'who knew?'

Katrina, Rita, Stan, the earthquake in Pakistan... did these events surprise God? Does God really know all future events? If so, why doesn't he intervene and save the lives of thousands upon thousands of people? Can a God be a loving God who knows what will happen and does nothing to stop it? On the other hand, could a God who doesn't know what will happen really be sovereign and in control of things? IS God in control of things?

I have been asked these questions a lot lately, and I am finding that more and more Christians believe in 'open theism' AKA 'free-will theism.'

Open theism is the teaching that God does not know all things. If people make free-will choices in the future, God choosees not to know or doesn't know because the future is not knowable. So, if we destroy the earth with global warming causations, etc., God could not know the future catastrophes that will result because of our free-will choices and, thus, could not intervene. He deals with it all when it occurs.

These are some of the things that 'open theism' seems to teach:

God does not know the future; God takes risks; God learns; God makes mistakes (because God does not know all things and because He is dealing with free
will creatures [whose future choices He does not know], God can make mistakes in dealing with people);God changes His mind.

As you can see, this is a different view/belief from that taught by many ministers of the gospel, that God is all knowing, never changing, sovereign/in total control.

One man asked "If the future does not exist yet, how does anyone, including God, know what will happen? Does he guess?"

If my friend smokes a pack a cigarettes a day and has done so for 20 years, I would assume/think/feel that he will get lung cancer eventually. Is that 'knowing' the future or just speculating based upon statistics? Not every heavy smoker gets lung cancer although they will no doubt get some unpleasant health surprises. I cannot know 'for sure' what will happen in the future. Can God? If so, how?

Does it matter if one is an 'open theist?' Is it OK to believe in Jesus Christ, repent of one's sins and be baptized but believe in a different 'view' of God than other Christians? Is God what he is or is God what we perceive? Can we 'go home' by different routes, different beliefs?

posted by Johnny at 5:50 AM

14 Comments:

  • So much written in the Bible is predicated on and understanding that God does know the future. He speaks it repeatedly through his prophets, warning his people of future events, and comforting them with it too. Christ tells his disciples exactly what is going to happen to him. If we don't believe God knows the future, how much of the Bible would we have to dimiss? And so much that was predicted came to pass.......

    Dana

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:54 PM  

  • God knows. If He believes our spirit is more important than the physical body, should there be so much concern for what happens here? When it comes to different avenues, only God knows for sure.

    Congratulations on the family, you deserve great happiness, and probably more sleep than you're getting, or will get. ha

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:09 PM  

  • Yes and no, if you were asking for opinions.

    No, it doesn't matter if one is an open theist. Yes, there are different ways to get down the same street 'home.'

    My personal belief is that the future does exist, God does know what will happen, and how people will choose.

    By Blogger GH, at 4:31 PM  

  • Dana, for discussion's sake, what if what is prophesized is planned by God? In other words, he knows those things will happen because he plans them and puts them into action, they are 'known' to him. That does not necessarily mean he knows the 'unknown.'

    A verse to ponder:

    Going a little farther, he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, "My Father, if it is possible, may this cup be taken from me. Yet not as I will, but as you will." Matthew 26:39

    We now know it was not possible for God willed otherwise, but this indicates Christ (who is also God) didn't know for sure at that time.

    Here's an interesting one: If it is possible, as far as it depends on you, live at peace with
    everyone. Romans 12:18

    By Blogger Johnny, at 9:30 PM  

  • Anon, thanks for your kind words.
    At least this time, I will have someone to share the early morning feedings. I had that job alone with my son. His mother died, and he was very premature and I was ignorant but, with God's help, we made it through. :) I didn't get much sleep for a year though. If Iva hadn't watched him a while in the early mornings so I could get a nap, I believe I would have died. lol
    **

    GH.. why do you think it doesn't matter if one is an open theist?

    As for other roads home, this is how one writer (C.S. Lewis)puts it:

    He likens the 'mere Christianity' that he describes in the book to a
    hall from which various rooms lead off. These rooms are the various Christian traditions. And just as when you enter a house you do not stay in the hall but enter a room, so when you become a Christian you should join a particular Christian
    tradition. Lewis believes that it is not too important which room you enter. It will be right for some to enter the door marked 'Roman Catholicism' as it will for others to enter other
    doors. Whichever room you enter, says Lewis, the important thing is that you be convinced that it
    is the right one for you. And, he says, 'When you have reached your own room, be kind to those who
    have chosen different doors.'

    Are we the ones who should decide if a room is 'right' for us? Is the above scriptural?

    By Blogger Johnny, at 9:39 PM  

  • Anon said: God knows. If He believes our spirit is more important than the physical body, should there be so much concern for what happens here?

    I'm not sure what you mean by 'God knows.' God knows what... the future? If life, i.e., the physical beings that we are, aren't that important, why was life given to us at all. Why not create us as spiritual beings only and skip the in between part?

    By Blogger Johnny, at 9:42 PM  

  • These tough questions are giving me a head ache. We understand very little in my opinion.

    Tiger got to hunt
    Eagle got to fly
    Man got to ask his self
    Why, why, why?

    Tiger got to sleep
    Eagle got to land
    Man got to tell his self
    He Understand

    -Kurt Vonnegut, Cat's Cradle

    Rita

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:44 PM  

  • Interesting questions, John. After I posted last night I was working on a Bible study and came upon the statement that "God grieved" his creation. One has to wonder how intense that grief could be if he knew exactly what would happen from the beginning. So perhaps the writer attributed human emotions to God he doesn't really have, or perhaps there really was an element of surprise and grief for God. Or, of course, maybe God grieves even when he knows ahead of time.

    Maybe God knows all the possibilities and warned of them (in the prophets) but doesn't know what choice we will make in any set of circumstances prior to our exercise of free will?

    On the otherhand, according to scripture, God created time. God existed before he created time, and so I don't think he is confined by time the same way we are. While I have no idea how that actually works on a technical level, if God is able to truly know us in this moment, then it seems like God would truly know the future as well, since he is not confined by time. Perhaps he makes a choice not to exercise his complete knowledge of the future in the present for whatever reason (which might be why Christ said "if it is possible." Perhaps he emptied himself of his Godly foreknowledge for a limited time) ...

    Now I want to know more:) Any reading recommendations?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:17 AM  

  • That was me, Dana, by the way:)

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:18 AM  

  • Some good questions and thinking Dana.

    Another verse or two for thought:

    "Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me, Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure: (Isaiah 46:9-10)

    Some good reading material. The first is quite technical but excellent.

    No Place for Sovereignty: What's Wrong with Freewill Theism
    --R. K. McGregor Wright

    A God of the Possible
    --Gregory A. Boyd

    The God Who Risks
    --John Sanders

    God's Lesser Glory
    --Bruce Ware

    No Other God: A Response to Open Theism
    --John Frame

    (Addresses God and time, among other things)

    By Blogger Johnny, at 1:43 PM  

  • If Jesus is God, and I think he is, he grieved, had joy and sorrow and all the emotions that we feel. As God, I must assume he is capable of the same. I also think it is impossible for us to understand how God, outside of time,is in control of time. Maybe the past, present and future are all one for him or there could be umpteen other scenarios. We cannot know the mind of God.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:25 PM  

  • Jesus clearly was God and knew he was God based on these scriptures (there are more) and while he was on earth with us. I don't know why he prayed for the cup to pass, if it were possible, in the garden.

    I Timothy 3:16 states, "God was manifest in the flesh."

    In John 10:28, Jesus said, "And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

    In John 8:58, Jesus said to the Pharisees, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." The term "I am" is the exact term that God used in Exodus 3:14 in reference to Himself! Jesus professed to be the eternal God of the Bible.

    Jesus says in John 14:9, "...he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?"

    In John 10:30, Jesus says, "I and my Father are one."

    Carl

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:32 PM  

  • Excuse my random thoughts. :)

    I really do not like the egg or water steam and ice analogy for the trinity. It's a funny word trinity, and not found in the bible. Like Carolyn I seem to see Jesus and God as different. Yet, Jesus was the exact representation of God in the flesh.

    How is it that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one?? Some believe it to mean that Jesus, God and the Holy Spirit are the same being, but it might mean they are one in the unity of love.
    Similar to the marriage covenant between a man and a woman, united as one, one flesh??

    Anonymous, perhaps God can see past present and future all at one time. I doubt our minds would cope with that very well. ;)

    Johnny, man persists in making God into the image of himself. :)

    What do you really think about open theism??

    Di

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:38 AM  

  • Di, I think open theism is a fallacious theory by well-meaning Christians trying to find 'answers' for the unanswerable. In my opinion, we cannot know all the answers for we do not have minds to comprehend it all.

    A god who makes mistakes, changes his mind, can't see the future, grieves over the past, can't control or manage people or catastrophes is not a god. Sounds all too human like the people who came up with the idea. The Bible teaches us clearly about God. We can either believe it or not as in all matters of faith.

    I do not look at specific 'features' but at the over-all picture of God. In the over-all story, God is all knowing, sovereign, supreme, superior.

    By Blogger Johnny, at 10:01 AM  

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